I had a friend whose two-year-old son would always say, "Me want to play with dat," or "Me like dat." In all the time I spent with this friend and her son, I never once heard her politely correct him. However, the very day the boy turned three years old, my friend said in front of me, "Tell Laura what you know how to say now!" The little boy looked at me and said, "I like you!"
My friend beamed with pride. "See! Now he's old enough to use proper English!"
Given this little boy had already been speaking for well over a year, I wondered why my friend thought age three was "old enough" to teach him the proper pronoun. If a child is capable of stringing several words together, why not teach him how to do it correctly regardless of his age? Why, instead, allow him to get into the habit of using "me" when it's correct to use "I?" What was it about the age of three that was meaningful to her? Sadly, I'll never know the answers to my questions because, frankly, I didn't feel comfortable asking.
The reason I tell this story, however, is because I've experienced this same attitude when I speak with other parents about discipline (and by "discipline" I don't mean "punishment" but rather "instruction"). I've heard mothers say, "Well, she's 18 months now, so I think we're about ready to start disciplining her." What do parents really mean when they say this? Do they mean that for 18 months the child has experienced virtually no discipline, and then, quite suddenly, his or her whole way of interacting with his or her parents changes? If so, is this really fair to the child -- or the parents? By 18 months, habits of interaction between parent and child have been well established. For all parties involved to have to suddenly change those habits based on some arbitrary age is, well, unnecessary.
Mary, what's your take?
I think, when people say that a child is old enough that they can "start disciplining" him or her, what they really mean is the child is old enough to understand punishment. I doubt that most children have been completely undisciplined prior to this point - though certainly some are, poor kids! A parent who says this doesn't understand what discipline is, doesn't understand that in fact, they have been disciplining all along, from very early in the child's life.
The origin of the word "discipline" comes from a Latin word for "teach". Discipline is much more about teaching than punishing. Punishment is indeed one tool in the discipline toolbox, but it is not the only one, and it is far from the most important.
To me, discipline is all those interactions that teach a child to wait, to moderate their impulses, to recognize and obey social guidelines, to begin to consider other people. It's a long, slow, gradual process. Many times, it is accomplished in the very gentlest of ways.
Baby is nursing from a bottle. Being four months old, Baby is VERY interested in the sounds and motions around him. At every chirp of a bird through the living room window, at every flicker of sunlight through the curtains, his head swivels to the new sound. Baby's engagement with the world is delightful, but mommy is tired of struggling to keep the bottle in the mouth of her bobble-head child. Mommy holds baby in snug to her chest, and keeps the bottle against her breast. Baby can swivel his head, but if he wants to feed, he has to return to the bottle, and he does. When he has had enough that he doesn't return to the bottle, Mommy knows he's full.
This is discipline. In a very small way, Baby has had to modify his behaviour. In a very small, preliminary way, Mommy has said "Please pay attention. Please be considerate."
I've kept Laura waiting too long. I'm sure she has something to say by now!
Actually, Mary, I was just thinking how right you are that most people define "discipline" as "punishment," which is probably why Merriam-Webster considers our definition obsolete!
Your point that parents are most likely already using discipline without even knowing it is spot-on. So if parents are already using discipline then it might be helpful if we, as parents, evaluated the level of discipline we use and our expectations of our children, which determine that level. For example, my friend did not expect that children should or perhaps could use proper grammar before age 3, therefore, she never taught her son the correct pronoun.
What other kinds of behavioral expectations do we have for our children? Are those expectations too high, too low, or somewhere in between? Are they based on knowledge of development, intuitive theory, gender differences, or our child's lack or abundance of language? Perhaps they're based on something else like a subconscious need to keep our children babies for as long as possible, or, alternatively, to have them grow up as quickly as possible.
If we know what our expectations are and what drives them, then we can better understand how and when we choose to discipline our children. From there, we can evaluate if we're working at the appropriate level for them. This is why having a good knowledge base of child development is essential. While all children are unique, basic knowledge of emotional and physical milestones, coupled with keen observation of our children's behavior, tells us what they're ready for and what they're not so we can adjust our expectations and discipline level accordingly. We don't want to overestimate or underestimate our children's abilities -- at least, not habitually.
What do you suggest, Mary?
You are so right! Evaluating our children's abilities and knowing what motivates our expectations in order to determine appropriate expectations for our child(ren) is key. Absolutely key, and it is probably the hardest part of parenting for most parents. You know what behaviour you'd like to see (or not see!), but you don't know if it's reasonable. Can you ask for this now? Should you hold off? Do you want this because it's best for your child, or only because it bugs you so much? Is that wrong? Will you be pressuring if you do? Will you be selling them short if you don't? Parents can second-guess themselves into the ground with questions like these. Thing is, there's usually far more than one way to deal with any situation, so you can do all manner of things - and still be doing it right!
Your 14-month-old scales the dining room chairs at every opportunity, but doesn't understand where the seat ends, and so is in immanent danger of falling off ten times a day. What do you do? "Tell her 'No'!" and lift her down, every time, is the obvious answer. It will be effective, too. With patient, consistent repetition, she will learn not to climb the chairs. If your goal is to keep her off the chairs, this is an effective technique.
It's not the only solution, though. Not all parents have the time (or the patience) to lift a child down from the chair as often as she will attempt it. There is no shame in this. After all, you could be doing this All.Day.Long for a while. At 14 months, the urge to climb is probably such an intense drive that it may be simpler to block the room off with baby gates for a few weeks. However, keeping her off the chairs is probably, unless you have much nicer furniture than I do, not really the focus of your concern. You are probably more worried that she not fall off and break an arm!
In this case, rather than say "no", or barricade the dining room, you may opt to turn the chairs over when you can't be in the room or can't be assisting her up and down. In a few weeks, she'll have learned to climb down safely, and your dining room will no longer look like something out of a Frat House.
Sometimes a parent will do this, but will be feeling as if they've copped out, somehow. You haven't, of course. Sometimes a parent will say "I couldn't do that! The upturned furniture would be so chaotic, I'd feel totally tense all the time." This parent might feel their response is selfish. It's not. Your approach depends on your personality and your goals.
Absolutely, Mary. In addition to knowledge regarding development, intelligently observing our children so we know where they are developmentally and what comes next, we also need to consider our own personalities and goals. Keeping all these variables in mind simultaneously is no easy task, which is why we've started this blog.
In the end, the short answer to the "When does discipline start?" question is "as soon as the baby is born!" Discipline is about teaching our children how to operate in our world, our culture, and in our individual families. It is a collaborative effort involving input from both children and parents.
Developing this pattern of interaction with our children at the very beginning of their lives, while keeping in mind their developmental level, ensures we don't introduce discipline according to some arbitrary date. If our behavioral expectations are too low for too long but then rise suddenly and sharply due to some magical date, we only confuse our kids. We can't expect our 18-month-old to suddenly listen to us if we never expected him or her to listen prior to that age. Thus, we should always have reasonably high expectations that grow at a natural and steady pace so as not to insult our children's intelligence, because they are so very smart!
-----------------
We hope you will join PiP in this and the many more discussions to come because it really does take a village to raise children!
That's a good point. I'm quite tired of seing how my 5 year old cousin is driving my aunt crazy. She was so spoiled before, and now that my aunt is pregnant they expect her to behave properly... and she wouldn't listen because she was never expected to.
Instead of yelling (that's what my aunt does when she can't take it anymore) I explain why we're upset and what would make us be happy about her behaviour. She hated me at first but now when I say "no way" she understands. She even told me she loved me two days ago (and I went all "aaaaawwww").
She should've been given clear boundaries before... now my aunt believes she's "old enough" to be told what's wrong with her behaviour... and I truly believe she was before, but hey, I'm not her mother. I don't have children so who am I to talk?
Posted by: Cat | July 10, 2006 at 12:58 AM
I have some family that were pretty harshly disciplined as children, and because of that, didn't want to do the same with their child. Rather than learn a better way, they pretty much let her run wild until she was about 7. She was a much happier child, they were all happier, after they woke up and realized what was going on, and started real discipline. Limits, not punishment. She's a wonderful 16 year old now.
Posted by: JJ | July 10, 2006 at 07:03 AM
These are great points. I'd love to see a post that also starts to address the parents that started out with great intentions (like me), but who lost their way in certain areas and need some tips and reminders on how to bring things back into focus. This is a great site - way to go Mary and Motherapist! :-)
Posted by: Kristen | July 10, 2006 at 09:14 AM
Kristen, that's a great idea for a post!
If any of you have other ideas about posts you'd like to see, please let us know!
Posted by: Motherapist | July 10, 2006 at 10:42 AM
I was very harshly disciplined as a child/teenager and even as recently as 2 years ago, my father tried to hit me because I verbally disagreed with something he said! (I was 36 at the time!) So with my 2 year old, I have been very conscious of punishment, and have never really done it..that is, until today, when I hit his hand after endlessly taking him off the side table to prevent him from turning on the lamp. He thinks everything I do with him is a game and laughs when I attempt to put him in a time out (a chair away from the "action"). So, when I hit him, he was shocked and started crying, and I walked away. Because I could see my parents in me. But I don't know what else to do. He challenges me at every turn, and he doesn't talk yet, so communication is non-existent. We are having him tested for language delays, I have concerns about autism, and to top it all off, I am due any day now with our 2nd baby. I love him dearly, and up until today, he didn't know what it felt like to have a parent hit him. I am so upset right now, and I am really hoping I can get some good advice. I read Mary P's blog religiously, and I would love to be able to get my son to respond to me the way her charges do.
Posted by: bombaygirl | July 10, 2006 at 02:10 PM
Congratulations on your new site, Mary P! Nice to meet you Motherapist! Looking forward to the coming wisdom.
We're entering the "testing" phase with our toddler, so today's discipline post was useful.
Posted by: Lady M | July 10, 2006 at 03:07 PM
Here is another idea for a post (that I was dealing with ALL day today). My almost 3 year old has entered the "Why" phase. This afternoon, everything I asked him to do or said to him was responded to with "Why?". (Even when I know he knows the answer!) On one hand, I want him to question and develop reasoning skills. I know he is doing this to learn more about the world around him. Yet other times I find myself wanting to shout "Because I said so!!!" ;-) I have actually started to say more and more "Why do you think?" Yet, I do want him to learn to OBEY right away. What are ways to encourage obidence without sqelching the desire to learn? I know Mary P has decribed some of her adventures of a child who questioned ALL THE TIME, and it is just downright annoying, and I don't want him to annoy me & others--another factor there. Any thoughts/tips/help would be appreciated!
Posted by: Tina | July 10, 2006 at 04:09 PM
Hello, Bombaygirl! Pleased to meet you!
Sounds to me like you're handling things well so far. You've identified the issue and your expectations. You are aware of how your family history affects your reaction to your son. You are taking the wise first steps of consulting your doctor and other experts to make sure he is capable of understanding your expectations of his behaviour.
Your unfortunate experience with "discipline" (which sounds suspiciously like "abuse" to me) has cast a huge shadow over your parenting. Of course it has. Now, with a child of your own, you know how you don't want to be, but you haven't a clear notion of what positive will replace the negative.
When you've experienced something like that, it's hard to know when and how to draw the line firmly, without either crossing it or stopping so far short that your child doesn't take you seriously. It sounds like you may have the latter problem, but, really if you have to choose one or the other, this is better than abuse!
There is a middle ground, of course, where you can be firm and your child can learn respect, all done with respect and not fear.
How this is accomplished is more than can be managed in a wee little comment box! Over at MiM's, I contributed to a post on avoiding physical punishment. You can find it here:
http://morphingintomama.typepad.com/morphing_into_mama/2006/05/well_you_asked.html
Perhaps it can be a helpful start for you.
Posted by: Mary P | July 10, 2006 at 04:12 PM
Great idea you two!!
By the way, have you read "Love and Logic"? http://www.loveandlogic.com/ It's a whole site, but I love their books. When parents come to me (a third grade teacher) with discipline issues and want resources, it is the first place I send them. Many of the books are geared toward older children/teenagers, but as you say, it is never too young to start.
Posted by: Laura | July 10, 2006 at 09:02 PM
Thanks Mary P. I bookmarked the various posts in a "Discipline" folder so that I can refer to them again and again. Its good to know that my child isn't the only one to act the way he does, and I will be really thrilled the day he actually responds to the discipline the way the other kids do!
Posted by: bombaygirl | July 11, 2006 at 10:48 AM
Great site ladies.
Posted by: Melissa | July 11, 2006 at 06:04 PM
It is a never ending source of frustration for me that I have to say "no, no" 40,000 times a day in order to get my boy to stop pulling all the books of the shelves, or all the DVD's off the shelves, or the like. It's frustrating because I am a person that likes instant gratification (or, as Carrie Fisher says "instant gratification takes TOO long") I KNOW that it works to say "no, no CD's", or whatever, and move my boy away from whatever it is. But my GOD, I have to say it a LOT and I know that I am going to have to KEEP saying it a lot and it makes me crazy, sometimes. But what makes me crazier is a kid that never listens to a word that his parents say, as is the case with my niece and nephew and nearly every child that comes into the restaurant where I work one night a week. So I keep reminding myself that my boy and I are trying to work on him becoming a little boy, then a bigger boy, then a teenager, etc. etc. My role in this is to help him and remind him that we can't go around pulling crap off shelves when we're in our house, or other people's houses. I'm not punishing him, I'm helping him, the way I see it. At least I see it that way when I'm thinking clearly, which is, oh, at least 10 minutes a day.
Great site!
Posted by: Joanne | July 12, 2006 at 06:47 AM
It looks like there will be a lot of great advice here. I'm looking forward to reading it.
Since you asked about ideas, I have one for you. My husband and I have very different ideas sometimes about methods of discipline. He is much more about letting our daughter see the consequences of her actions, and I'm more likely to explain them to her instead. I know that both are valid and each works better in certain situations, but end up feeling defensive of my methods anyway. How do you reach a compromise and show a united front when you disagree?
Posted by: ktjrdn | July 14, 2006 at 07:55 AM
What a wonderful endeavour with a fabulous mission statement... I will definitely be bookmarking your blog!
I am a first time parent to a 15 month old- by his second month of life, I had read all of the baby manuals and had somehow cobbled together a parenting gestalt that was working for me, my husband and our son (I mean, I really had styled myself as a baby "pro"!)- but now that he's mobile, with meltdowns occuring every 15 minutes, I am realizing that I am back to the drawing board (!!!) yikes! So, I am avidly soaking in this discussion on discipline-
Here is a question, and possibility fodder for a new post(?) I took my son to the library yesterday, where he had a wonderful time toddling and cruising around their designated infant "discovery zone." This was a hot day in Phoenix (115!) and there were a LOT of kids in the library- many of which were unsupervised. While I was watching my son, another little girl (maybe about 5 or 6 ish?) just walked over to him and pushed him down to the ground. No parents around, and definitely a chld of an age that should "know better.' Since I have no concept of what is or is not appropriate to say to another parent's child, I kind of just picked up my son and avoided the situation (run away!). However, in consultation with other friends, I was told that I need to "model" appropriate behaviour for my son by telling other children that this sort of thing is not appropriate.
I am sure this is a common scenario that old school parenting pros can handle, but it stresses me out!I am very hesitant to "discipline" another parent's child, especially when there is no parent around with whom to consult or report said bad behaviour. How would you guys handle this situation?
Posted by: kathrynaz | July 16, 2006 at 08:06 PM
Hi Kathrynaz!
The situation you described with your son at the library is so common! I've encountered it many times myself.
What I suggest is rather than speaking to the other child, speak to your own. You can say to him, "When someone pushes you, tell them, 'Stop! No push!'" or "'Stop! Use words!'" Then demonstrate how he can hold his hand out in front of himself, palm facing out, like a traffic cop. Even if he's not very verbal yet, showing him how to handle these situations as soon as he begins to experience them empowers him. If he only watches you reprimand the little girl, then he's not empowered.
Sadly, our children are going to encounter these types of situations over and over again. The best we can do is teach them how to handle them effectively.
Best,
Laura
Posted by: Laura S. | July 16, 2006 at 08:53 PM
This is the best article I've read in a long time, thanks! It just let me pat myself on the back knowing that I'm doing a great job discipling my son while he goes through some hard times of being a 2yr old. I've always felt the most important thing is for me to know who he is and what he can handle- it's all about learning.
Posted by: hilary | August 09, 2006 at 09:28 PM
The one thing I feel is the most difficult in disciplining children is staying calm. I haven't found the answer for it yet...
Posted by: disciplining children | October 27, 2009 at 06:33 AM